By some events of misfortune and fortune, I ended up at the Knights of Columbus poker game in Old Bridge. I haven’t been to this place in almost a year, but it has changed a bit; I guess they’ve used the rakes from the poker games to buy flat screen TVs, and now the place doesn’t look like a shithole as much as it used to. The cash games usually have eight people at a table; the stakes are usually 1/2 and you can buy in for between 60 and 100. Anyway, here are some hands that I remember:
| Hand 1: I was in late position, next to button. Action went: Fold, raise to 8, fold, fold. | |
| My hand: 4c 4h | I called, crossing my fingers that the button will fold. Surely he did, then SB folded, and BB called. |
| Flop: 5s 8d Th (pot: $25) |
BB checked, #4 bet 8 again. I thought that the flop missed him, so I called. Bad call? Probably, but what the hell. BB folded. |
| Turn: 5c (pot: $41) |
#4 checked. I bet 15, he called, which surprised me a little. |
| River: 2d (pot: $71) |
#4 bet $20. Now, pretty much any hand, if it hit the flop, beats me. Any pocket pairs other than threes beat me too. I’ve been #4 bluffing before, so I couldn’t rule this possibility out either. I was getting 4.5-to-1 odds, so I called. Sure enough, he turns over 7d 3s, and I took down the pot. |
| Hand 2: I was on the button. Action went: Call, fold, fold, call, call. | |
| My hand: 2h 3c | I raised to 10. SB folded, BB called, everyone else folded. |
| Flop: 4h 5h 6h (pot: $27) |
BB bet 20. I raised to 50, he pondered for a bit, and then called. I thought he had something like Ah 5x or something. |
| Turn: 2c (pot: $127) |
BB checked. I bet 90 (3/4 pot), he called. |
| River: 2d (pot: $307) |
Seeing as how I flopped a straight and then… picked up trips. I tapped BB for 21 more, he called. He showed AA with the ace of hearts. |
| Hand 3: I was SB. Action went: fold, fold, fold, fold, fold. Dealer raised to 8. | |
| My hand: 6c 7c | I called, and so did BB. |
| Flop: 4c 5c 8c (pot: $24) |
KA-CHING. I checked, BB bet 15, button snap called. I called as well. |
| Turn: Ad (pot: $69) |
Checks all around. |
| River: Kh (pot: $69) |
I checked. BB bet 30. Button shoves for 75 total, I call, and then BB folds. Button shows AKc, and he seemed a bit angry after seeing my cards, but oh well. |
| Hand 4: I was under the gun. | |
| My hand: Ad As | I raised to 15; everyone folded except #7 and BB. |
| Flop:Qd 9c 3h (pot: $46) |
BB bets 23. I raised to 46, #7 folds. BB shoves for 121 total (75 more to me). So I guess he has a set or two pairs. Or pocket kings. The odds I’m getting is a little less than 3-to-1. I still can’t decide if I should have called or folded, but I was curious as to what BB had. So I called, and he flipped over pocket queens. |
| Turn: 7s (pot: $288) |
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| River: 7d (pot: $288) |
=[ |
| Hand 5: I was sitting on the button. Action went: call, fold, fold, fold, fold. | |
| My hand: 4d 7d | I raised to 7. The SB raised to 15, BB folded, #3 called. I said something along the lines of “I’m going to get lucky,” and called, muttering “it’s going to be all diamonds!” |
| Flop: Ad 2d 3d (pot: $47) |
SB can’t believe what fell. He just folds his hand in disgust. #3 bets 15; a feeler bet, I guess. I raised to 40, he called. |
| Turn: Kh (pot: $127) |
SB is excited. He shoves for 52. Easy call. He flips over As Ks. I show my flush. |
| River: 8c (pot: $231) |
I let out a sigh of relief that an ace or a king didn’t fall and rake in the chips. |
| Hand 6: I was BB. Action went: call, fold, fold, fold, raise to 8, fold. SB calls. | |
| My hand: 7s 3h | Perfect BB hand… -_-a I call. #3 folds. |
| Flop: 7d 6h 3c (pot: $26) |
Great flop! SB checks. I bet 26. #7 raises all-in to 137 total. SB folds. What a bastard. Either he’s trying to buy the pot, has a set, an over pair, top two pairs, or a straight. I feel that the last two are unlikely because he raised PF. So the only hand that has me beat would be a set. And even this, I felt was improbable. So I called. He has 4s 5s. *sigh* |
| Turn: Ad (pot: $300) |
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| River: As (pot: $300) |
Not only did I get counterfeited, but I couldn’t draw one of the four cards that I needed in the deck. D= Was this a bad call? *shrug* |
+700
Feel free to criticize; I welcome it.
You play such odd hands. Raising pre-flop with 23o, 47s? And hand two… such a great elephant. I’d like to play against him. Hook me up, please.
Comment by Andrew Sullivan — May 18, 2008 @ 2:38 am
Jesus. Pretty sexy format.
A really important thing you are missing are stack sizes, by the way. Next time you play you should keep in mind what the stacks are. You have to play things differently if you have 60 big blinds versus 200 big blinds.
Hand 1) calling is fine. I raise sometimes depending on stack size (here is where it matters. If you are deeper I raise for isolation/value/payoff more when I hit a set, maybe around 100 big blinds), but I assume you aren’t very deep (since it is a 50 blind buyin game?) so calling is perfect. Flop call is basically neutral I think. I think you are ahead roughly 2/3 to 1/2 of the time. To be honest, I probably let it go on the flop since I don’t like the higher cards in the deck falling. If I call, it is usually to take it away on the turn with a raise, or just raise the flop myself as a bluff. Now his check on the turn doesn’t give you much information. Betting the turn is also very netural - you can check behind or bet, whatever. River is hilarious, because when he gives you that odds you have to call for information.
Hand 2) preflop is perfect, unless you’ve been raising all the time. I raise bigger on flop, and bigger on turn to get him allin. You miss out on the money from a single Ah on the turn if you don’t shove.
Hand 3) I already talked to you about this hand =) to be honest it isn’t all that terrible because this situation doesn’t happen very often, and you did get value, but I think the other lines I told you about gives more value.
Hand 4) So this hand is a little different. Look at the flop and look at how dry it is - there are almost no draws except TJ. So here, calling the flop may actually be the best move. Suppose your opponent had TT or something. If you raise the flop he might just fold. But if you call the flop, the pot is going to be 92, and there will be exactly about $98 more in his stack, giving a perfect pot size on the turn. Don’t minraise, by the way. Also, in live play you are almost certainly beat when he reraise shoves flop - this is also why you don’t want to raise really dry flops like this, because when he shoves you have a tough decision! Now, if the flop is 9hTh6c, note how good raising is all the time - it gets hands to draw, it may get a frisky draw to shove on you, etc. I dont’ really think the call is bad, since he might have KK (badly played, but whatever) or AQ or QK too. Unless you know this guy to be really tight, calling is fine. It is good that you called expectign to be beat most of the time, but the pot was so bad.
Hand 5) great raise preflop. Now when SB raises min and you get a caller you have to call, as long as you are smart enough to fold even when you hit a 7. As played, there is not a really good flop raise amount. If your opponent is a calling station though, shove. even if it is an overbet he might call you with AK or a single Kd. You want him to pay as much as possible for his draw, since you don’t want any diamon to hit.
Hand 6) ugh, just fold preflop. You are out of position, your hand sucks, you can raise to steal but it isnt’ really worth it. Even raising is better than calling here. I think you value the blinds too much and in reality that’s where you probably lose most chips in the long run. Think about it. Say someone raises preflop every hand (this sounds about correct). Every time you call in the big blind you are protecting that one blind with 3 more blinds, but most of the time you are folding right after the flop! Just let it go. As it played, you have to call. Give you hit 2pair, he can have overpairs all the time, and it was a good read that it is very unlikely for him to have the other 2pairs or a straight because most people don’t raise preflop with thos kind of hands. After he shows you the hand, peg him as a decent player who knows to raise with suited connectors, say “good hand” and move on.
Comment by Yan Zhang — May 18, 2008 @ 9:12 am
HAhaha Gene you poker freak :P… nice website
Comment by Dave Song — May 19, 2008 @ 3:26 pm
Yan Zhang, on hand two: pre-flop raise with 23o is “perfect”? How do you figure? With the players (i.e., calling stations) Gene was up against, the odds of bluffing somebody out are slim, and the odds of hitting something are slimmer. This hand seems more like Gene getting lucky with a garbage hand.
And hand five, who the hell gets excited with paired aces against a probable flush? Novice players, at best. I’d play the 47s, for sure, but, again, how do you justify a raise? What are the odds of hitting the flush and not facing a higher flush?
Comment by Andrew Sullivan — May 19, 2008 @ 6:33 pm
Andrew,
Thanks for the comments.
1) There are two breeds of calling stations, from the limited sample size and description I would categorize most people as calling stations preflop and weak-tight players post. What is important is not the pre-flop raise with 23o, but the fact that Gene has the button with a mediocrely playable hand.
“Perfect” may be an overstatement (and sort of tongue-in-cheek), but raising is a much better play than calling and, given the juicy limpers, folding. Gene did get lucky in that he hit the straight and that his opponent had something to go on, but most of the time he is going to be in position heads up against a passive player postflop, and it doesn’t really matter than what he has, as long as Gene is not spewing money like a maniac.
2) You raise again because you are on the button with a very playable hand. This hand preflop is really in the same situation as hand 2) except it is much better and not as much a pure bluff as 23o.
I think you are implying that I am raising to hit the board with a flush and then getting value, and then shutting down. In which case - no, because that is a horrible way to play a hand like 47d. Maybe half or the value of 47d comes from post-flop bluffing value, again when you raise and get 1 or 2 callers, when they check to you on a dry board, and you fire to take it down, or raise when you hit a straight or flush draw or whatever. Playing “hit or fold” poker is losing long-term, especially if you plan to move up stakes.
As played, since the SB minraised I’m calling only to hit twopair or better, but that is justfied by the yummy pot odds a minraise preflop gives us, as donkeys happily do over and over again.
Comment by Yan Zhang — May 19, 2008 @ 6:59 pm
Of course, against a different type of calling station (i.e. the true stations, which these people may very well be), you are completely right and you can fold things like 23 or 47d preflop in Gene’s situation. It is just style-dependent - I peg most people at these stakes as willing to call preflop but willing to fold postflop, since the pots at $1-$2 are borderline “Serious money” for them.
Comment by Yan Zhang — May 19, 2008 @ 7:04 pm
1. fold flop. bet 2/3 pot on turn. raise the river. he has nothing strong so just get him off instead of losing to 66 when he has it.
2. fold preflop. yan is wrong. we can talk more about why when i see you next. raise much more on the flop to protect your hand and get value. i’d make it 75 at least. the turn is good, you can even bet more. shove the river.
3. lead the turn. it gets checked through a lot if you don’t, and you have the nuts so let’s get some money in there…you like money right :-P? for future reference start including relevant players’ stack sizes at the start of a hand. this is like the most important piece of information when deciding what line to take with a given hand.
4. raise smaller preflop, like to 10. when he leads into you, just raise with the intention of getting it in. you got unlucky.
5. raise more, to 10. stop varying your raise size based on the strength of your hand. it makes putting you on a hand super easy. nice hand otherwise.
6. lol this is a terrible sb, bb, or any position hand. fold preflop. muck them as fast as you can. this is the problem with hands like 73. they flop good hands seldom, and even when they do, you may still find yourself in difficult situations. that said, you have to get it in with 2pair postflop. he will show up with worse a good amount so it’s fine. your real mistake was in playing 73o to begin with.
paul
Comment by Paul — May 23, 2008 @ 6:25 am
regarding your preflop game: you have a tendency toward loose play. this is not inherently bad as long as you can recognize and have the discipline to hold back. but realize that the whole point of playing weak cards isn’t to hit strong hands then extract, since this will happen only somewhat rarely, your opponents will have slightly worse hands to pay you off with even more rarely, and you will sometimes find yourself stacking off to better hands. rather, you play these hands to increase the value of your true money makers, the premium hands, and to make your occasional bluffs credible. when your opponents know you can be bluffing with a weak holding, they are forced to call you down more, making AK, AA, etc. more profitable to play. after a million hands, these will inevitably be your biggest money makers, not hands like 65s or 74o. no matter how well you play, garbage hands will always yield only a marginal profit on their own. their true value is in making other hands profitable.
the upshot of all this is that you should only play junk hands as much as is necessary to maximize the value of your premium hands. playing them to “hit big” is a terrible strategy, and you’ll just end up bleeding tons of money in the long run. when yan calls your preflop raises with such hands “perfect,” they are really only marginally profitable. so don’t get carried away. play these hands, use them to improve your image, but view them as a lesser part of your arsenal.
paul
Comment by Paul — May 23, 2008 @ 6:57 am